Phil S. Dixon: The E-Journal Interview

Phil S. Dixon has been researching Negro Leagues history and interviewing former players for more than 40 years. (Photo courtesy of Phil S. Dixon).

By Brian Burnes

On March 23, 2023, Phil S. Dixon will be honored by the Jackson County Historical Society for his most recent book, “John ‘Buck’ O’Neil: The Rookie, His Words, His Voice.”

The book is Dixon’s 10th volume devoted to the Negro Leagues, but his own voice has not been limited to the printed page. 

Over many years he has presented programs in more than 200 communities across the country and in Canada, detailing the Negro Leagues and their impact not just on baseball history but American history. 

In 1990 Dixon was one of 12 area residents who signed the nonprofit incorporation papers for the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum, today one of Kansas City’s most visible cultural institutions.

Two years later Dixon published “The Negro Baseball Leagues: A Photographic History,” a collection of close to 600 archival images documenting the Black baseball that had operated in segregated America through the early 1960s.

The book, which Dixon compiled with editor Patrick J. Hannigan, received the “Casey” Award given annually by “Spitball: The Literary Baseball Magazine.”

Dixon’s volume joined others published by the growing ranks of scholars who began documenting the Negro Leagues, which had gone largely unremarked upon by the mainstream press of its time.

Those efforts contributed to the growing awareness of the long-marginalized legacy of those Black athletes who for decades had been prevented from competing with their white peers in Major League Baseball. 

In 1966 retired Boston Red Sox slugger Ted Williams, during his induction to the National Baseball Hall of Fame, called upon its representatives to extend recognition to “the great Negro League players that are not here only because they were not given a chance.”

In 1971 Kansas City resident Satchel Paige, who had played for many Negro Leagues teams, chief among them the Kansas City Monarchs, became the Hall of Fame’s first Negro Leagues veteran to be inducted, named by a special committee.

By 2022, a total of 37 such individuals had been so recognized.

Meanwhile Dixon, who graduated from Kansas City Kansas Community College in 1977, pursued several interests. As a trumpet player with a funk band called Threatening Weather, he traveled the country. As a retail employee, he worked in stores in Colorado Springs, Wichita and Topeka. 

But all the while he collected thousands of baseball cards and began to consider how baseball history could serve as a portal to American social history. After being transferred to Topeka, Dixon met and interviewed Carroll Ray “Dink” Mothell, who had played in the Negro Leagues from 1920 through 1934, and also Maurice Doolittle Young, a Monarchs pitcher in the 1920s.

From 1985 through 1987, he served as a freelance reporter for the Kansas City Call, the Black weekly newspaper. In 1987 he became a member of the Kansas City Royals publicity department and in 1996 he earned a liberal arts degree from the University of Missouri-Kansas City.

But before, during and after, he kept researching the story of Black baseball. And over the past approximately 40 years, he has interviewed an estimated 500 athletes and others associated with the Negro Leagues.

Q. Were there any books about the Negro Leagues which were important to you?

Bowie Kuhn, former baseball commissioner, credited the 1970 book “Only the Ball Was White,” by Robert Peterson, as having “focused greater attention on the accomplishments of Negro League players,” contributing to their eventual recognition by the Hall of Fame.

In 1972 Roger Kahn, longtime New York sportswriter, published “The Boys of Summer,” which detailed Jackie Robinson’s integration of Major League Baseball in 1947, as well as the stories of other members of the Brooklyn Dodgers. That book sold several million copies. 

But there were many others.

Dixon published “John ‘Buck’ O’Neil: The Rookie, His Words, His Voice,” in 2022. (Photo courtesy of Phil S. Dixon)

A. There was a book that first came out in 1979 called “The Ultimate Baseball Book” (by Daniel Okrent and Harris Lewine) that had about 800 photos. But it didn’t have much material about the Negro Leagues. I had been scratching around, trying to figure out what I wanted to do with the Negro Leagues, and I saw that book and I thought “If I could make a book like that about the Negro Leagues, with that many photographs in it, it would really revolutionize what everybody thought.”

So that became my goal - to surpass that book. And so I began working on it. It took a long time.

Q. The subtitle of that book describes it as a “Photographic History.” Why were the photographs so important and why would they “revolutionize” the perspectives of those who saw them?

A. When I first started, I was talking to (longtime Negro Leagues scholar) John Holway and he said, “You’ll never find that many pictures.” And, in fact, other books like “Only the Ball Was White” didn’t have many pictures in it, and what pictures the book did have were grainy or just not of very good quality.

But I knew from my own family that families didn’t throw pictures away. I come from a historic family; Blanche Kelso Bruce, who was elected to the U.S. Senate in 1874 by the Mississippi state legislature, was my great-great-grandfather’s younger brother. When I was growing up, we had pictures of Senator Bruce around the house.

So, I knew I had to find these former Negro Leagues players or their families to find those pictures. Pictures were important. Without them, you could write a story about a player - but actual photographs of those players and the uniforms they had worn would open peoples’ eyes - because these athletes had been basically invisible.

Q. In the acknowledgements to your 1992 book, you listed the several museums and institutions you approached for photographs. But you also listed the far greater number of former athletes whom you tracked down - or, in several cases, their surviving family members. Were these individuals surprised to see you?

A. You know what? They were glad to see me. They could tell I was very passionate about this project. 

Another thing - I knew how to talk to older people. My father had been 49 years when I had been born, and my mother had been 44. Many of these athletes were about 60 years old when I approached them, and I knew how to talk to older individuals. They were the same age as my parents. 

I told them what I wanted to do, and they had never heard like anything like this before - at least, not for them as Black ballplayers. So they were excited to see me, and some of them got behind me in big ways.

I took a long road tour in 1982. I went to Ashland, Kentucky where for several years there was an annual reunion of Negro Leagues players.

In the early 1980s Dixon began traveling the country, interviewing veterans of the Negro Leagues. Here he visits with James Thomas “Cool Papa” Bell in St. Louis. (Photo courtesy of Phil S. Dixon).

Then I went to Georgia and visited (former Kansas City Monarchs and Indianapolis Clowns player) Othello Renfroe. I stopped in Charlestown, West Virginia and visited Clint Thomas, who had won the 1925 Negro World Series with the Hilldale Club. In St. Louis, I met (James Thomas) “Cool Papa” Bell (the fifth Negro Leagues player inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1974).

Here in Kansas City Georgia Dwight, the widow of (former Kansas City Monarchs player) Eddie Dwight, was a big booster. And so were other Kansas City players, like (former Kansas City Monarchs member) Newt Allen, (former Monarchs member) Chet Brewer and, of course, (former Monarchs player and manager) John “Buck” O’Neil. 

Without those guys working to see their history preserved, there would not be a Negro Leagues Baseball Museum in Kansas City.

Q. In 1990 you, Buck O’Neil, baseball author and researcher Larry Lester, then-president of the Society for American Baseball Research W. Lloyd Johnson and Alfred “Slick” Surratt, a former member of the Kansas City Monarchs, signed the nonprofit incorporation papers for the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. 

Seven others later would sign, among them Frank White, former Kansas City Royals second baseman and current Jackson County Executive; Edward Beasley, a prominent Black educator, then Dean of Instructional Services at Penn Valley Community College; and Charles Scott, Jr., a Kansas City area lawyer who was a grandson of Elisha Scott, a Topeka lawyer who was present at the February 13, 1920 founding of the Negro National League at the Paseo YMCA near 18th and Vine streets in Kansas City. 

In 1989 the Kansas City City Council approved a $20 million appropriation to develop the 18th and Vine District. 

In the several years following the museum’s 1990 incorporation, it maintained offices in the Lincoln Building on 18th Street. In those years the museum generated much of its own revenue through the licensing of replica apparel inspired by the uniforms of Negro Leagues teams long vanished.

The museum opened at its current location at 1616 E. 18th Street in 1997.

A. When I came back from my 1982 road trip I had an interview in the Kansas City Business Journal. In that interview I began talking about a possible Negro Leagues museum in Kansas City.

After that story came out Horace Peterson, who recently had started the Black Archives of Mid-America, talked to me about the possibility of there being three new museums organized in Kansas City - the Black Archives and two other museums, one for jazz and the other for baseball.

It took a long time, and it’s amazing to think about how humble the baseball museum was when it started. But we had a good product, and it was a team effort on the part of all of us.

In 1990 Dixon (second row, right) joined four others to sign the nonprofit incorporation papers for the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. The others included (first row, from left), Alfred “Slick” Surratt, John “Buck” O’Neil, W. Lloyd Johnson) and (second row, left) Larry Lester. (Photo courtesy of Phil S. Dixon)

Slick Surratt might one day come in with $200, from various things he had done, and he would give that money to the museum.

And Buck O’Neil was very good in convincing other Negro Leagues players to support the museum, sometimes asking them to buy tickets to events that they would not even be attending.

I remember the day we signed the incorporation papers. If you look at the picture from that day - Buck was known as a fastidious dresser - but he is the only person not wearing a suit.

Q. Baseball researchers like yourself know how Buck O’Neil broke into the Negro Leagues in the 1930s, and later served as a player and manager for the Kansas City Monarchs from 1938 through 1955, while missing a couple of seasons while serving in the U.S. Navy during World War II.

In 1962 O’Neil became the first Black coach on an American or National League team with the Chicago Cubs. In 1988 he became a scout for the Kansas City Royals.

in 1994 O’Neil became a national figure through the “Baseball” documentary by filmmaker Ken Burns. In the ensuing years, as a compelling and charismatic speaker, O’Neil put his celebrity in service of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. He played a prominent role in the licensing of replica apparel to generate revenue for the museum and in 1998 he appeared on “Late Night with David Letterman,” and presented the host with a Monarchs jersey.

How would you describe the impact Buck O’Neil made on the museum as well as the growing interest in the Negro Leagues?

A. When the Ken Burns documentary came out, it included a lot of Buck O’Neil. Of course, Buck had been telling these stories for years.

After the documentary people who would hear Buck speak would, in turn, grow interested in the museum. Buck also had great connections, and that was reflected when companies like (replica apparel manufacturer) Ebbets Field Flannels started to come on board with the museum.

With Buck talked, people listened, and the museum just started to grow, and it’s still growing. Right now the Negro Leagues is one of the hottest things in baseball.

Q. Your new book includes QR (quick response) codes that allow readers to access and listen to recordings of Buck O’Neil telling various stories.

Dixon’s most recent book features QR codes which allow the reader to access taped interviews with Buck O’Neil. (Photo courtesy of Phil S. Dixon)

A. My wife and I have a lot of cassette recordings of interviews I’ve done and we had been looking for some way to put this information out there.

So we were at a book fair and there was a woman who had done a genealogy book featuring her grandfather talking through these QR codes. My wife and I looked at her and said “How does this work?”

What you hear through the QR codes in my book is an interview I did with Buck in 1985. Buck and I agreed that we were going to sit down and go through his career, year by year, starting in 1938, his first year with the Monarchs, and going through to 1955 (O’Neil’s last year as Monarchs manager).

But the interview just for 1938 took four hours. By the time that was over we were so exhausted that we never did any more years.

But I asked him questions you don’t find in all the other books about Buck. I asked him about drugs and alcohol in the Negro Leagues. I asked him what the guys talked about while riding on the bus to and from games.

And this was long before the Ken Burns documentary, of course.

I’ve sold a lot of copies of the Buck O’Neil book. Today I think QR codes in books are as powerful as photographs were 30 years ago.

Q. In 2020, during the 100th anniversary of the Negro National League’s founding in Kansas City, Major League Baseball announced that it would incorporate Negro Leagues statistics into the Major League Baseball statistical universe, including the years from 1920 to 1948, one year after Jackie Robinson integrated the major leagues with the Brooklyn Dodgers. Why was that important?

A. In October, 1922, the Kansas City Monarchs defeated the minor league Kansas City Blues in a series held in Kansas City.

So many people are always amazed by this. They can’t wrap their heads around it. And I’ll go out and talk to people and say “You think this is so incredible, but why? The Blues were a minor league team, and the Monarchs were a major league team.”

So when Major League Baseball made the announcement in 2020, it didn’t surprise me. And so today the statistics are commingled. It doesn’t change any of the major league totals, but it does affect percentages. 

It’s interesting. We all grew up knowing that Ted Williams was the last major league hitter to hit .400 (Williams hit .406 for the Boston Red Sox in 1941). Well, not anymore. (Today Josh Gibson, a star with the Homestead Grays, is credited with hitting .466 in 1943, which was a few points behind the .471 average attributed to Tetelo Vargas, who played for the New York Cubans that same year). 

I don’t know if it’s vindication - but I am glad to see it, because some people who would never have otherwise looked into the Negro Leagues will now. I think back to when I was a kid - had all this information been there about these players back then, I would have known their names a lot sooner. 

So If this is going to get some of these people recognition in a way that helps their legacies, that’s good.

Q. In 2013 you began to travel to communities across the country and Canada, presenting a program called “The Kansas City Monarchs Come to Your Community.”

Your presentations detailed those occasions when the Monarchs, to earn extra revenue, travelled on “barnstorming” tours to smaller communities to compete against local or regional teams.

Through 2019 you traveled to at least 200 communities. Sometimes the Missouri or Kansas humanities councils sponsored these appearances. You drove an estimated 75,000 miles over those years, often taking the same roads you believe the barnstorming teams of those years had followed.

Dixon has visited at least 200 communities across the country and Canada to deliver Negro Leagues presentations; he also has appeared at the Central Library in downtown Kansas City. (Photo courtesy of Phil S. Dixon)

A. I had all this research from about 30 years of work, and I wanted the Negro Leagues players to get more recognition.

I tried to make a schedule of everyplace the Monarchs had played and I ended up with this incredible list; in communities all across the Midwest and even in Canada, like Regina and Saskatoon. 

At about this same time I was seeing (longtime U.S. senator) Bob Dole traveling to different counties across Kansas and thanking people for supporting him during his political career. Bob Dole was using a wheelchair at the time. 

So thought “If Bob Dole can do that, I can do that.”

I went to Warrensburg, Mo., first and it went really well. Then I travelled to some communities in Kansas, and I started filling up the room. I thought “I might be onto something here.”

I ended up going to 17 states and Canada. 

On some Saturdays I would do two towns, just like the Monarchs sometimes would play two games in two different communities on the same day. I learned a few things. For example, I learned if I was giving a presentation during the fall in some places in Missouri, Oklahoma or Kansas, those programs had to be scheduled before noon because after that everyone would be watching the college football games.

I had some great experiences. In Norwich, Ohio, I spoke at the National Road and Zane Grey Museum. The family of the man who had suggested to (Brooklyn Dodgers general manager) Branch Rickey to scout Jackie Robinson came out to hear me speak.

At another presentation in Marysville, Kansas, I showed a picture of the team the Monarchs had played there in 1939. A guy in the audience said “Do you see that guy? That’s me.”

He was 97 years old and he was actually in the picture I was showing from 1939. The next year, when I went to speak in a nearby town about 30 miles away, he and his wife drove there to hear me. I met him a couple of more times like that, and on his 100th birthday I sent him a birthday card.

I never would have met him had I not gone on this tour. 

Q. In February, 2022 you had been scheduled to present a program in Brookings, South Dakota - but, in the face of bad weather, you arranged to deliver your program by Zoom. 

After about 10 minutes, your presentation was hacked and interrupted by racial slurs. You continued your presentation and the hacking ended about two minutes later. 

According to the Kansas City Star you told the audience “If we eliminate the bad parts of our history, we are also eliminating the history of those who made progress.” 

According to a spokesperson with the Anti-Defamation League Center on Extremism in New York, 30 such “Zoombombing” incidents had been reported during the February, 2021 observance of Black History Month.

Dixon has delivered his Negro Leagues presentations in community centers and, on occasion, classrooms. (Photo courtesy of Phil S. Dixon)

A. Sometimes driving to my presentations has helped me understand what the Negro Leagues players might have had to think about when they were traveling back in the 1930s and 1940s.

Sometimes I would speak in communities where they have open carry gun laws, and some people brought their guns to the presentations. But these have been changing times and sometimes, to make sure I was safe - if I was scheduled to speak at 7 p.m. and I got there around 5 p.m. or so - I would go gas up my car before my presentation so, after I got done speaking, I could leave right away and get on the highway, not stopping for food or anything.

But despite all that, people still would come out to hear my talk. And I’ve had all kinds of great experiences.

There was the time when that man from not far from Springfield came up to Kansas City and shot the people at the Jewish Community Center. (In 2014, an Aurora, Mo. resident killed three people at the community center and a senior living center nearby. A Johnson County, Kansas jury later found him guilty of capital murder and recommended he be put to death; he died in a Kansas correctional center in 2021.)

The person who ran the newspaper in the town that man had come from wanted to do something to help race relations.

So I went down and spoke there, and the newspaper declared it “Phil Dixon Day.”

Today I know what my mission is when I go into a community to talk - to unite people through the game of baseball.

To learn more about Phil S. Dixon, go to nlbalive.com.

Brian Burnes is president of the Jackson County Historical Society.